Eat The Meek
Wara li rajt il-programm Bondi+ fuq l-immigranti illegali, lil Degiorgio tal-ANR (idhlu fil-link jekk joghgobkom) jghid il-hamallati, lill-kummissarju tal-pulizja li sthajjiltu li sar membru ta' l-ANR, u dawk il-filmati ta' l-immigranti litteralment maghluqin u msakrin gol-gageg tad-detenzjoni bhall-annimali tac-cirklu jew taz-zoo, imnezzghin minn kull dinjita'. Hux xadini jghajjruhom? U vera ta' xadini qed jittrattawhom. Tawni gewwa ghall-ahhar dawk il-filmati. Waqajt verament down, u allura qieghed f'mood pessimista ghall-ahhar. Ma tantx ghandi xi nghid hlief li nhalli dawn l-erbgha versi...
Why must we stay, where we don't belong?
Why must we stay, where we don't belong?
Because there's never gonna be enough space
So eat the meek, enjoy the taste
It's always gonna be a delicacy
Lick your chops and eat the meek
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
The factory mass producing fear,
Bottled, Capped, distributed near and far
Sold for a reasonable price,
And the people, they love it, they feed it
Brush with it, bathe with it, breathe it
Inject it direct to the blood
It seems to be replacing love
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
Because there's always gonna be token truth
Forgotten code discarded youth
You know there's always gonna be pedigree
One own the air, one pay to breathe
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
Why must we stay where we don't belong?
posted by Il-Fre at 9:45 PM
46 Comments:
Tista ssemmi l-annimalati li qal?
Ghax billi tghid annimalati hadd ma jkun qieghed jifhmek.
Grazzi
11:54 PM
Hammalati ridt nghid, skuzani.
11:55 PM
mhux problema.
Degiorgio u shabu tal-ANR ma jridux jammettu li Malta hija parti mid-dinja u ghalekk qeighdin naffacjaw dil-problema. Ma nistghux inkomplu nitfghuha taht it-tapit kif huwa issugerixxa li naghmlu. X naghmlu bihom lil dan-nies? huwa issuggerixxa li nzommuhom detenuti definittivament (dawk li jigu rigettati l-istatus umanitarju...) x igifeiri? igiefieri jibqghu hemm danw? u -konvenzjoni li MALTA iffirmat? narmuha il-bahar? Hekk? Id-drittijiet umani? fejnhom sur degiorgio?
Qaghad jaghmel links ukoll bejn il kriminalita u l-afrikani. Ma semmiex per ezempju illi nies li jkunu ilhom maghluqin hemm gew ghal zmien twil ha jsofru tbatija psikologija, u kif qal tajjeb ir rapprezentant tal UNHR, qatt ma jkun hemm psikologu ma l-immigranti meta dawn jittellaw il-qorti minhabba xi reat li jkunu ghamlu. Saru wkoll studjiu socjologi (li ma ssemmewx) li juru li hafna drabi dawk li jigu meqjusa bhala kriminali ikun hafna drabi rizultat ta l-ambjent li jkunu ghexu jew jghixu fih. Degiogrgio qaghad isemmi persentaggi, per ezempju ta kemm hemm nies afrikani l habs, u implika li dawn huma di natura kriminali, (peress li bhala persentagg huma relattivament izjed mill-maltin fil-habs). Pero' dan l-argument huwa bazwi, kif ga ghidt, peress li hafna mid drabi, in nies l iktar fil qiegh tal-istrati socjali huma izjed prone li jinqabdu tar reati li jaghmlu. Qatt smajt bil white collar crime? Kemm hemm nies li huma meqjusin "white collared" il habs? ma jfissirx izda li dawn ma jaghmlux atti kriminali... forsi izjed gravi mill-petty crimes...
napprezza wkoll jekk thalli ismek mhux tibqa wara l-anonimita. Ghandek l-option li thalli isemek sa fejn naf jien.
grazzi siehbi
7:15 AM
"X naghmlu bihom lil dan-nies? huwa issuggerixxa li nzommuhom detenuti definittivament "
indefinittivament ridt nghid, sorry
7:31 AM
Naqbel mieghek Fre (ehe jien min tahseb li jien)
Bhalek, Bondi plus nkwetani ghall-ahhar. Rqadt hazin u mdejjaq. Mar rajtux mill-bidu pero' ghax wasalt tard id-dar
Interressanti hu kif hawn min jahlu tant hin u energija jaghmlu kampanji bla sens. Jiguni f'mohhi dik kontra l-abort konta l-fantazmi ghax dak iz-zmien ma kien l-ebda pressure biex tidhol din il-mizura u issa din li ma taghmilx sess qabel iz-zwieg. Ostrich mentality jew diversionary tactics?
10:53 AM
"Bhalek, Bondi plus nkwetani ghall-ahhar. Rqadt hazin u mdejjaq."
LOL. Sounds so Graffitti-ish.
2:43 PM
Malta hija parti mid-dinja izda ma jistax jkun li thalli lil dawn n-nies KOLLHA jigu hawnhekk, ghas-semplici fatt li diga hawn wisq nies hawn Malta! Jekk inti tara bniedem qed jinharaq go dar taqbad, u tkun taf li jekk tmur ssalvah tmut int ukoll tmur ssalvah? L-ewwel nridu nehdu hsieb taghna nfusna biex nkunu nistaw nehdu hsieb tal-ohrajn.
Int qed tahseb li l-maggoranza ta dawn l-immigranti qed jaharbu minn xi gwerra jew minn xi persekuzzjoni? Jekk iva ghandek zball serju, ghax hafna minnhom huma economic migrants u jigu hawn ghax jafu li huwa facli hafna ghalijhom jisirqu x-xoghol tal-Ewropej, peressli jitolbu paga hafna inqas minn dik li ahna naqlaw. Dan sew? Barra li jkunu qed jinkisru d-drittijiet taghhom nkunu qed ngewwhu lil nies lokali.
Haga ohra, dan li n-nies li gejjin mill-kontinent Afrikan ghandhom rata hafna oghla ta crime mill-"bojod" huwa fatt maghruf sew fil-kamp tal-kriminologija. U m'ghandux x'jaqsam ma dak li qed tghid inti - flok ma twebbes rasek fittex u aqra biex tara ghalik nnifsek - anke fejn jkun hemm nies Afrikani li jkunu second jew third generation migrants hemm l-istess trend. U ghalkemm huwa vera li n-nies li jigu mill-kontinent Afrikan huma suwed, ma nahsibx li bniedem b'mohhu f'postu jghid li ghandhom dir-rata oghla ta kriminalita ghax huma suwed. Il-kulur tal-gilda u din t-trend huma sempliciment zewg fatturi li m'ghandhomx x'jaqsmu ma xulxin (ie mhux wahda kawzattiva tal-ohra) - kumbinazzjoni t-tnejn jinstabu fl-istess razza - nothing more, nothing less.
In-natura m'hix blokks siment sur Fre. In-natura eterogenja - hemm min hu izjed b'sahhtu, hemm min hu izjed sabieh. Hemm min hu inqas prone ghal kriminalita u hemm min hu izjed prone. Ftakar li mhux l-bnedmin kollha evolvew fl-istess ambjent.
Dik hi n-natura.
Dwar d-detenzjoni, int x'tissugerixxi? Li nhalluhom liberi kif jaslu? Malta ghandha certu ligijiet - u dawn jkun ga kisruhom billi dahlu llegalment. Flok qed naghmlu bhal ma jsir fil-pajjizi taghhom (ie flok nuzaw xi forma ta vjolenza) qed:
1. nehdu hsiebhom - u ta dan naqlaw f'wiccna.
2. nipprovdulhom l-ikel - u jsejjhulu dogfood - meta hawn Maltin li qas jaffordjaw jeklu tigieg u lasagna kuljum!
3. nipprovdulhom facilitajiet biex jinhaslu - u jkissru kollok
Nista ma nieqaf qatt. Issa ghidli int sur fre, jekk int tahrab minn pajjizek ghax tkun ppersergwitat u tispicca f'detention tasal biex taghmilhom dawn l-affarijiet? Jew tkun grat li l-pajjiz laqghek??? U jekk inti tahrab tasal biex thalli lil familtek warajk? Jew lit-tfajla? Tasal sur fre?
Gietni haga ohra f'mohhi. Ghaliex l-maggoranza assoluta (>90%) tal-immigranti huma rgiel? Mhux se noqghod nghidlek x'nahseb li hi r-raguni - ghandek mohh biex tahseb u ghalhekk nitolbok tuzah.
Sfortunatamnent d-dibattitu fuq din l-kwistjoni spicca ghal dejjem. Min naha ghandek x-xellug estrem u fuq n-naha l-ohra l-lemin estrem - t-tnejn li huma torox ghal xulxin. Dnub kbir.
Grazzi lilek Fre. Skuzani li miniex se nhalli ismi imma nixtieq nibqa anonimu ghal ragunijiet validissimi.
Grazzi.
8:43 PM
Jien mhux se ninħeba wara subgħajja u noqgħod anonimu, għalkemm ovvjament nirrispetta li ħadd ieħor iħoss li għandu jagħmel hekk. Dunque...
1. Fre, "lill-kummissarju tal-pulizija stħajjiltu li sar membru ta' l-ANR" għax tenna l-mistoqsija: "Malta kemm tiflaħ taċċetta?"?
Xi ħaġa ta' l-iskantament hi li din il-mistoqsija saqsejta kemm-il darba jien fil-passat, imma bqajt bla ebda risposta mingħand l-NGOs/dawk ta' l-istess fehma. Ħeqq, għax fil-fatt, Malta kemm tiflaħ taċċetta?
Issa tgħidlix "għax int razzist u dawn in-nies qed ibatu u int trid tħallihom ibatu". Jekk insaqsi mistoqsija diretta, nippretendi tweġiba diretta li tkun involviet ammont minimu ta' ħsieb talanqas.
Jien meta tgħidli "għalfejn għandek iżżomm il-policy ta' detenzjoni?", ma nwieġbekx "għax intom kommunisti, tal-Graffiti u moħħkom biss f'Bob Marley u tgħixu f'dinj'oħra!" (mhu qed ngħidlek xejn ġdid naħseb), imma ntik ir-raġunijiet.
Għalhekk, tweġiba Nru. 1:
Malta kemm tiflaħ taċċetta?
2. "Ħamallata" għax Degiorgio qal li mhuwiex ġust li persuna li m'għandha ebda raġuni valida (u jtuha status umanitarju biex isoddulha ħalqha) tingħata l-istess liberta' bħal dawk li ġenwinament ħaqqhom status ta' refuġjati?
***
Jiena biex inkun għidt is-sewwa, il-programm ilħaqtu qisu minn nofsu 'l hemm jiġifieri ma rajtx il-filmati ibda biex.
Pero' ħaġa ċara li ħarġet hija li llum il-ġurnata m'għadhiex daqstant il-kwistjoni ta' "marriduhomx għax aħna razzisti".
Pjuttost naħseb li min ra l-programm il-bieraħ minn lenti oġġettiva seta' jikkonkludi li fil-fatt illum il-ġurnata, dawk li qed jinqatgħu mir-realta' u l-fatti u qegħdin jibqgħu iħambqu fuq l-aġenda tagħhom m'għadhomx "ir-razzisti għax jobogħdu s-suwed", imma l-NGOs għax lanqas jekk ma jkollhomx raġun (u dan joħroġ ċar), jibqgħu iħambqu fuq il-liberta' u mhux liberta'.
Naħseb illi l-bieraħ is-sens komun rebbaħ l-argument lil xi wħud, u kixef li l-argumenti ta' ċertu individwu kienu biss frott ċertu twebbis tar-ras fuq affarijiet li huma għal kollox maqtugħin mir-realta' fiċ-ċirkostanzi preżenti.
12:50 AM
U issa mistoqsija oħra li mingħalija kien għamel Lowell:
Fl-Afrika hemm madwar 840,000,000 ruħ. Li hemm kundizzjonijiet xejn favorevoli f'ċerti bnadi kulħadd jafu. U b'hekk wieħed jista' faċilment jgħid li, miżerjament, ta' l-anqas 1% minnhom ħaqqhom l-istatus ta' refuġjat żgur mhux forsi.
Issa la intom dejjem tirrifjutaw li twieġbu l-mistoqsija "Malta kemm tiflaħ taċċetta?" għax tgħidu li m'għandniex inħarsu lejn restrizzjonijiet materjali, dawk il-1% taċċettawhom kollha jiġifieri?
Għal min forsi jbati fil-matematika, dak il-1% jammonta għal tmien miljun ruħ.
Joqogħdu jekk inqiegħduhom il-Buskett tgħid?
12:57 AM
illostra!
tuni cans naqa mela, ghax difficli nsib hin dan l-ahhar! haqq ghax-xoghol!
ha nibdew bil-mistoqsijiet ta kenneth:
"Għalhekk, tweġiba Nru. 1:
Malta kemm tiflaħ taċċetta?"
Ma nafx ghalfejn dil-paranojja kollha li dejjem issemu l-punt li nies li jaghmlu dil-mistoqsija jigu mghajjrin "razzisti". Nahseb illi din hija mistoqsija valida, u min ghajjrek razzist ghax saqsejt dil-mistoqsija, nahseb li kien simplistiku izzejjed. PEro' wisq nibza' li hafna drabi meta ssir din il-mistoqsija, issir f'kuntest ta "pajjizna huwa taghna, u qed jigi invazat (invazjoni) mis suewed (ghallinqas min-naha tal-ANR). U ha nghid ghala nahseb li dan mhux korrett.
Malta hija zghira u ghanda il limitazzjonijiet taghha. Nahseb dan kulhadd jafu. Pero' ma nistghux nichdu lanqas illi din il problema tal immigrazzjoni giet over-rated u minfuha b mod esagerat mill media lokali. Bl-ikrah. Kemm hawn immigranti bhal issa? mhux qed nghid illi m hawnx hafna, pero' meta tisma lil media titkellem, u anki lill ANR, ituk x tifhem illi dawn is suwed daqt jibdew tilghin fuq rasna, daqs kemm hawn minnhom. Jien nahseb illi din hija allegazzjoni falza u assurda.
min naha l-ohra naqbel mieghek illi malta ghandu jkollha il-piz ta din il problema maqsum bejn il-pajjizi ewropej. Ghalekk malta ghandha taghmel lobby fl-ewropa biex il piz ta din il-problema tinqasam bejn il pajjizi tal-EU kollha. DAk ghandu jkun l-ewwel prijorita taghna.
Issa,
"2. "Ħamallata" għax Degiorgio qal li mhuwiex ġust li persuna li m'għandha ebda raġuni valida (u jtuha status umanitarju biex isoddulha ħalqha) tingħata l-istess liberta' bħal dawk li ġenwinament ħaqqhom status ta' refuġjati?"
Sa fejn naf jien dawk li l-kaz taghhom jigi rigettat, jigu deportati minn fejn gew, eventwalment. ikkoreguni jekk zbaljat.
il mistoqsijiet l-ohra tieghek behsiebni nirrispondihom ma ta anonimous ghax nahseb relatati.
3:40 PM
Ps. ghax issa nahseb qed nifhem it tieni mistoqsija tieghek. Status umanitarju ma jinghatax biex isodd halq l immigranti. Status umanitarju (apparti li ma jaghtix l istess drittijiet ta refugjat) ghandu l process tieghu ukoll biex jinghata (apparti iz zmien ukoll), u ma jinghatax kif gie gie.
3:43 PM
Nigu ghal anon.
"Int qed tahseb li l-maggoranza ta dawn l-immigranti qed jaharbu minn xi gwerra jew minn xi persekuzzjoni? Jekk iva ghandek zball serju, ghax hafna minnhom huma economic migrants u jigu hawn ghax jafu li huwa facli hafna ghalijhom jisirqu x-xoghol tal-Ewropej, peressli jitolbu paga hafna inqas minn dik li ahna naqlaw. Dan sew? Barra li jkunu qed jinkisru d-drittijiet taghhom nkunu qed ngewwhu lil nies lokali."
Naqbel mieghek. Imma sa certu punt. Dan kollu juri kemm is sistema ekonomika globali kurrenti(u gvernijiet korrotti) qed tohloq wealth disparities kbar. U allura qed jinholqu dawn il mass migrations. Din hija tip ta' forced migration li gejja minn sistema ekonomika globali mohxija f sormha (apparti il gvernijiet korrotti). Ma nistghux inwaqqghu it tort KOLLU fuq dawn l individwi li qed ifittxu hajja ahjar. Nattakaw il problema mill qiegh. Naf li mhux daqsekk facli, u din mux soluzzjoni li tista tinstab mill lum ghal ghada, imma tajjeb li nzommu dil haga f mohhna all the way out, ghax imbghad din ha jkollha konsegwenzi fuq kif nittrattaw lil dawn l-individwi li bazikament huma vittmi tas-sistema.
"In-natura m'hix blokks siment sur Fre. In-natura eterogenja - hemm min hu izjed b'sahhtu, hemm min hu izjed sabieh. Hemm min hu inqas prone ghal kriminalita u hemm min hu izjed prone. Ftakar li mhux l-bnedmin kollha evolvew fl-istess ambjent:
mela la qed tghidli sur fre, nista nghidlek sur ANONYMOUS? :)
li tkun prone ghall kriminalita mhux l istess haga bhal ma tghid "tkun sabih" Huma 2 affarijeit differenti minn xulxin. X ghandhom x jaqsmu? jekk jien ragel sabih (jew ahjar nghid ikrah :) ) gejt ragel ikrah, ghax hija haga naturali. Ghax il-genes hekk riedu. PEro jekk nghid illi waddabt gebla lil dak li kien qed jattakkani u jdejjaqni ma jfissirx illi jien di natura bniedem vjolenti. ifisser illi ic cirkostanzi geghluni nagixxi b dak il mod. Ma nahsibx li hemm x titfixkel f dil haga.
"Ftakar li mhux l-bnedmin kollha evolvew fl-istess ambjent.
Dik hi n-natura."
din hija kontradozzjoni fiha infisha, kif ga ghidt. Ma tistax tghid f sentenza li l-ambjent igieghelek tagixxi b mod, imbad fis sentenza ta wara tghidli "dik hi n natura". Nature or nurture? Nahseb inti ghandek bzonn taqra sur anonymous...
"Dwar d-detenzjoni, int x'tissugerixxi? Li nhalluhom liberi kif jaslu? Malta ghandha certu ligijiet - u dawn jkun ga kisruhom billi dahlu llegalment."
zlaqt fin niexef fuq 2 punti hawnekk.
1....jekk trid noqodu nimxu bil ligi...huma fil verita qatt ma jistghu jigu akkuzati li dahlu hawn illegalment. Ghaliex? Ghax huma qatt ma riedu jigu Malta! Huma gew Malta ghax kienu sfurtunati u kellhom hsarat fid daghjasa, jew sabu ruhhom in distress. U? ghalekk l-armata ghamlet kif inhi obbligata li taghmel (bil ligi! u min hawn nirringrazzjom tax xoghol siewi li jaghmlu...) u dahhlithom f Malta. Dan juri li int qatt ma tista' takkuzohom legalment illi huma kriminali ghax dahlu malta illegalment.
2. ha nsemmu il-ligi, la semmejtha int. MALTA OBBLIGATA BIL LIGI INTERNAZZJONALI LI IFFIRMAT VOLONTARJAMENT biex ma tuzax policy ta detention. Ma xtaqtx insemmiha, ghax miniex xi wiehed li npoiggi il ligi fuq kull sitwazzjoni. nahseb li hemm valuri ghola mil ligi fil hajja. Imma int sfurzajtni insemmiha, u semmejtilek. Enough said.
izjed risposti dalwaqt...
to be continued... :)
3:57 PM
"Flok qed naghmlu bhal ma jsir fil-pajjizi taghhom (ie flok nuzaw xi forma ta vjolenza) qed:
1. nehdu hsiebhom - u ta dan naqlaw f'wiccna.
2. nipprovdulhom l-ikel - u jsejjhulu dogfood - meta hawn Maltin li qas jaffordjaw jeklu tigieg u lasagna kuljum!
3. nipprovdulhom facilitajiet biex jinhaslu - u jkissru kollok
Nista ma nieqaf qatt. Issa ghidli int sur fre, jekk int tahrab minn pajjizek ghax tkun ppersergwitat u tispicca f'detention tasal biex taghmilhom dawn l-affarijiet? Jew tkun grat li l-pajjiz laqghek??? U jekk inti tahrab tasal biex thalli lil familtek warajk? Jew lit-tfajla? Tasal sur fre?"
Ghandek ragun, u nasal boiex naqbel mieghek ukoll, imma jien ghalija dan kollu juri kemm is-sistema ta detenzjoni mhux qed tahdem.
1. Kemm fuq l-immigranti...meta qed taghlaq ammont kbir ta nies go post zghir, il kwalita ta' hajja awtomatikament se tonqos. Apparti minn hekk, maghluqin hemm gew, dawn in nies m ghandhom xejn xejn xejn x jaghmlu. Immagina lilek innifsek issa, sur anonimu, taghmel sena u nofs maghluq go arja over populated, ma taghmel XEJN. XEJN. L-iktar l iktar hu li toqoghod tilghab bil ballun, kemm ha ddum tilghab bil ballun imma? Sena u nofs? hehehe. tad dahk kwazi. Dawn in nies bilfors se jiffrustraw ruhom. Bil fors se jinqalalhom problema psikologici! La saqsejtni, nghidlek li kieku jien probabbli naghmel suwicidju, jew nispicca noqtol lin nies li nara quddiemi...jew shabi l immigranti (hence il glied ta bejnihthom), jew ninfexx mas-suldati u l pulizija innocenti li qed jaffacjawhom ta kuljum (hence l-atitudni taghhom mal-pulizija u s suldati).
2. Il pulizija u l armata. Apparti li dawn in nies qatt ma gew ittrejnjati li jahdmu ma l-immigranti, dawn il povri nies qed ihabbtu wicchom ma immigranti frustrati u mdejjqin b hajjithom. Ovvja li ha ssib immigranti li ha jajjru lil pulizija. U ovvja li il pulizija u l-armata se jkunu frustrati huma wkoll u se jaghjruhom lura.
Dan kollu qed jikkawza sitwazzjoni fejn ir razzizmu jista' jikber u jiffjorixxi. Imbghad jibdew jigru l affarijiet li qed jigru: Immigranti ikissru, pulizija jaghjjru lill-immigranti kummenti razzisti bhal "xadini suwed" (xi haga li hadd mhu qed isemmi...ghax easy insemmu lill-immigranti ikissru it toilets...imma l kummenti ta xi pulizija u suldati hadd mhu qed isemmihom.) Nerga' nghid, mhux qed nghid li tort taghhom essagg, izda tort ta' sistema li qed iggib lil kulhadd kontra kulhadd, u jekk mhux se nindunaw xhini il vera prroblema, ha jispicca jbati kulhadd, bhal ma sfortunatament ga qed jigri.
Kieku id detenzjoni qed tintuza bhala detterrent bhal ma intqal, ghalfejn in numru ta immigranti qieghed dejjem jizdied iktar ma jghaddi z zmien?? Qed jizdiedu ghax is sitwazzjoni fid dinja qed tehzien. U qed jizdiedu f'Malta, ghax ahna insertajna l ewwel pajjiz li jerda' il problemi kollha meta dawn jinsertaw ikollhom problemi huma u ghaddejin mill ibhra taghna. Ghax kif ga ghidt: DAWN QATT MA RIEDU JIGU MALTA.
Jien nissuggerixxi illi:
1. bhal ma ntqal tajjeb minn xi student f debate gewwa l-universita. Il-gvern ghandu jimpenja ruhu, issa li sibna ruhna naffacjaw problemi li huma globali, u mhux biss lokali (...stenbahna fl-ahhar li Malta hija parti mid dinja u mhux qed tghix go vakuum...sfortuna li kellhom ikunu "ix-xadini" li jifthulna mohhna fuq dil-haga), biex jitkellem u jghaddi mozzjonijiet u stqarrijiet fuq problemi globali dinjija l-iktar fuq pajjizi tat-tielet dinja. Ghandna naghmlu pressure, fejn nistghu, u b liem mezzi nistghu, biex nsemmghu lehinna fuq problemi dinjin, ghax eventwalment qed niffaccjaw parti minn din il-problema hafna ikbar. Il-gvern mghandux jibza jitkellem ukoll kontra s-sistema ekonomika globali (in-neo liberalizmu) kurrenti li qed tohloq dawn id-deskrapanzi ekonomici kbar bejn pajjizi u ohra; il global north u l-global south. (hence, economic migrants)
2. on the short term, kieku jien nipprova (imqar ghal ftit zmien) is sistema ta open centres, fejn l immigrant ma jkunx imsakkar go gagga ma jaghmel xejn ghal sena u nofs, u gieli izjed, (ie: piz tal-ostja fuq il gvern), imma jkun jista' jikkontribwixxi lejn il-komunita, billi jahdem u jhallas it-taxxi. Dawn f'certu hin (per ezempju darbtejn fil-gurnata) ikollhom imorru jirrapurataw l-ghassa, u jekk ma jaghmlux dan, jigu mressqa l-qorti. Bhal meta tkun on probation bazikament. B'hekk izzom kontroll.
B'hekk:
1) tkun qed tnehhi il-kawza ta frustrazzjoni u razzizmu li qed tigi gernerata bl-uzu tad-detention centres. Id-detention centres huma kawza kbira ta razzizmu u segragarazzjoni, ghax int qed lin nies qed tghidilhom: lil dawn ma rridux nintegrawhom ghax dawn kriminali. Dan igib frustrazzjoni fost l immigranti => frustrazzjoni fuq il pulizija u l armata => il panic kollu, u t tbatija li qed tigi generata fuq iz zewg nahat.
2) ma jibqghux ta piz dirett fuq il gvern, bhal ma huwa il habs per ezempju.
5:14 PM
also have a look at this, for some other good points regarding the problem of immigration and all things related:
http://peklectrick.blogspot.com/2006/03/right-family-multicultural-paranoia.html
5:26 PM
M'għandix ċans naqra/inwieġeb ir-risposti tiegħek kollha għalissa, għalkemm napprezza ħafna l-fatt li rrispondejt il-mistoqsijiet li għamiltlek.
"Sa fejn naf jien dawk li l-kaz taghhom jigi rigettat, jigu deportati minn fejn gew, eventwalment. ikkoreguni jekk zbaljat."
Ħa nilgħabha ftit ta' l-avukat tax-xitan. Interessanti ħafna dik l-"eventwalment". Minjaf għala?
5:51 PM
Ma nafx x hini il-problema bl- "Eventwalment". Bhal ma nafu (jien naf ghax nahdem go ufficcju, u dawn l-affarijiet fejn tidhol burokrazija, jiehdu hafna hafna hin), l-applikazzjoni tiehu hafna zmien biex tigi processata. alekk uzajt il kelma evetwalment
5:55 PM
cutie..
isle of view :)
10:28 AM
Minn dawn il-kummenti li qrajt, qed nirrealizza li din il-problema ta' l-immigranti qed tigi diskussa minn kull lat, dak socjologiku, ekonomiku, politiku, biologiku, geografiku, storiku, antropologiku... It-teoriji ma jonqsux, kulhadd jitteorizza u jivvinta cucati godda.
Kif nistghu ninsew li qed nitkellmu fuq 'persuni' li qed jghixu din ir-realta' kuljum, il-hin kollu...
Xi hadd ikkummenta li jekk jaqbdek id-dwejjaq tara l-filmati, tkun qed tinstema'
"Graffitish".. U ejja ta'..
Jekk tieqaf tparla naqra u tirrifletti bis-serjeta' fuq it-tbatija u l-ingustizzja li qed jghaddu minnha dan-nies, trid tkun altru bniedem bla qalb biex ma jaqbdukx id-dwejjaq u ma thossx responsabbilta enormi fuq dahrek. Dawn hajja wahda ghandhom ta' u qed inkunu ahna (Westerners) li wara li fottejnilhom pajjizhom qed infottulhom kull cans li jghixu ta' nies.
12:03 PM
Diskussjoni interessanti u pressoche matura. Pero' nixtieq nikkumenta fuq dan ta' qabli li donnu qed jitfa' l-htija ta' l-isfortuna ta' dawn in-nies fuqna l-Maltin.
Malta qatt ma kellna kolonji, anzi ahna konna kolonja Ingliza (u tghidx kemm qlajna bombi minhabba fihom). Jigifieri ahna mhux bhal Franza, Ingilterra u Spanja li tghidx kemm gawdew u sfruttaw il-kolonji taghhom.
Il-Maltin battew biex bnew lil Malta u issa li ghandna pajjiz decenti, jigu dawn in-nies u jharbtulna kollox ghax hekk se jaghmlu jekk nibqghu sejrin hekk.
Ghalfejn ghandi nhoss htija jiena ghax qed niddefendi l-interessi tieghi, interessi li jiena qlajthom bl-gharaq u bit-tbatija? Il-Maltin qatt ma serqu xejn minn pajjizi ohra, allura ghalfejn il-Maltin ghandhom ikunu guilty ta dan li qed jigri lil dawn in-nies?
Kieku kontu Francizi, Inglizi jew Spanjoli, kont nifhimkom imma ahna Maltin, ahna gejna sfruttati! U issa li qed naghmlu meta inzommuhom f'detenzjoni hu nipprotegu dak li hdimna ghalih b'tant sagrificcji. Sigurta, Paci Socjali, Sahha u kultura tolleranti bejnietna (li ma tmurx fl-estrem li nhallu nies mhux bhalna jaghmlu li jridu f'artna).
Ahna generuzi bizzejjed meta ntuhom ikel u servizz ta sahha b'xejn. Ftakru li dawn kollox b'xejn qed jiehdu.
Min fuq dan kollu, issib xi immigrant fl-open centre tal-Marsa li jattakka mara Maltija. Dak il-grazzi? Dan fl-open centre kien mhux detenut.
2:50 PM
"qed jitfa' l-htija ta' l-isfortuna ta' dawn in-nies fuqna l-Maltin."
Il-htija tfajtha fuq id-dinja tal-West, mhux fuqna l-Maltin biss. Veru li ahna qatt ma kkolonizzajna l'hadd, pero veru wkoll li ahna issa naghmlu parti minn din id-dinja tal-West li hija ngusta u tisfrutta lil batut. Iktar minn 'htija' jien uzajt il-kelma responsabbilta'. Min hu responsabbli ghal problemi ta' faqar, gwerer, ambjent imnigges, problemi socjali? Hadd u kulhadd. Iva, jien inhossni responsabbli u nkwetata hafna meta nara l-awtoritajiet ta' pajjizi jiksru drittijiet fundamentali ta' persuni innocenti, u nhossni iktar responsabbli meta nara lil huti Maltin jitkellmu b'mibgheda u jixtiequ l-hsara lil persuni vulnerabbli li ghaddejin minn tbatijiet kbar.
"Ahna generuzi bizzejjed meta ntuhom ikel u servizz ta sahha b'xejn."
Din m'hiex kwistjoni ta' karita' u generozita. Il-gar tieghi m'ilux qabad pitirross u kien itih l-ikel u anka jikkurah, imma xorta mietlu ghax ma kellux l-iktar haga importanti: IL-LIBERTA'.
L-immigranti qeghdin f'sitwazzjoni li lanqas annimal ma trid tara fiha. Dawn diga' ghaddejjin minn trawmi enormi: mifrudin mill-familja, mill-pajjiz, vjaggi twal u perikoluzi, displacement psikologiku, dahlu f'dinja aljena, l-istat taghhom hu bizzejjed biex jitfaghhom fi krizi ezistenzjali u jien, jiddispjacini nghidlek, ma nistax nemmen kif hawn nies li jirragunaw bil-mod tieghek ta' meta nitkellmu fuq bnedmin. Jigifieri inti jekk xi hadd jaqflek go kamra, jtik l-ikel b'xejn u jgiblek tabib meta timrad, tirringrazzjah ghax generuz??
"Min fuq dan kollu, issib xi immigrant fl-open centre tal-Marsa li jattakka mara Maltija. Dak il-grazzi?"
Mhux ha nidhol fil-mertu ta' dal-kaz ghax ma nafux. Pero' dak il-persuna ovvjament ghandu jigi mressaq il-qorti u jigi ggudikat skond il-ligi. Bir-ragunament tieghek, ghax Malti jattakka mara, ifisser li hu punt validu biex nitfghu l-irgiel Maltin kollha f'detenzjoni?? Ma tarax li ma taghmilx sens li tiggudika mijiet ta' nies, minn nazzjonalitajiet u kulturi differenti, fuq li ghamel persuna wahda, u titfaghhom kollha f'keffa wahda, sempliciment ghax inzertaw kollha asylum seekers li spiccaw Malta?
Fre, kelli nirrispondi lil Cristoforo hawn la kkummenta fuq l-argument tieghi hawn.. ; )
6:24 PM
Proset mummy cool!!!
irrispondejt hafna ahjar minn kemm stajt nirrispondi jien. Some really smart comments in there.
Il-problema qieghda tigi rigenerata minhabba il-messaggi li kontinwament qed nigu bbumbardjati bihom. Il-fatt li ghandek nies detenuti, diga tqajjem biza' mhux spjegata fin-nies. In nies diga jarawhom kriminali. Dan biex ma nsemmux l-overcrowding u z-zmien twil imsakkrin hemm gew. Trid tkun ALLA jew super-human biex ma tiggenninx hemm gew, f dawk il kundizzjonijiet, ghall dak iz zmien twil. Cristoforo, naghmillek challange. Ma rridx risposta. Irrispondiha lilek innifsek. Ghalaq ghajnejk u prova immagina lilek innifsek f dis sitwazzjoni. Hrabt minn pajjizek (ghall liema raguni kwalunkwe) u nsomma eventwalment spiccajt maghluq hemm gew, overcrowded, kundizzjonijiet tal-hara, u ma tafx kemm se ddum hemm, lanqas data ma ghandek fejn taf li se tohrog dak in-nhar. Il-habsin f'kordin ghandhom dak il- "privilegg". Dawn m ghandhomx. Bla tama. Kull ma qed nisfidak hu biss li tipprova timmagina lilek innifsek kif thossok, taghmel sena u nofs f dis sitwazzjoni, lejl u nhar, minghajr tama, minghajr xejn x taghmel, ticcassa, u tahseb u torqod. Ghal sena u nofs Daqsekk.
Insa il fatt kellekx tort jew le biex spiccajt hemm. Insa dak il-fatt. PRova ahseb biss f'kif dik is sitwazzjoni tista' iggibek tagixxi.
Cristoforo, nissugerilek taqra ftit fuq is-Self Fulfilling Prophecy Theory ghax interessanti hafna.
6:34 PM
Kieku nkun maghluq bhalhom probabli nbati hafna biss jiena nipprova ngib ruhi sew kemm nista mas-suldati biex forsi jissimpatizzaw mieghi u anke naghmel xi habib jew tnejn maghhom! Jiena zgur ma nitfax l-ikel ma' l-art jew nattakka s-suldati biex nahrab (anke ghax tigini aghar!).
Isma dan hadd ma jiehu pjacir jghalaq in-nies f'habs minghajr ma jkunu ghamlu xejn gravi imma ma tantx ghandna ghazla kif spjegajtlek fil-forum.
Kieku ahna konna r-refugjati u huma c-cittadini f'pajjizhom, kienu jaghmlulna l-istess probabli jew mhux aghar! Dawn mhux xi nies helwin anqas ma xulxin Fre. Ma ninsewx il-massakri li jsehhu... Congo, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast - dawn joqtlu lil xulxin ahseb u ara lilna.
Kieku jaslu xi erba buddisti mit-Tibet refugjati nifhmek u naqbel mieghek! Almenu dawk taf li kieku gara bil-maqlub, kienu jghinuk.
7:25 PM
"Kieku ahna konna r-refugjati u huma c-cittadini f'pajjizhom, kienu jaghmlulna l-istess probabli jew mhux aghar! Dawn mhux xi nies helwin anqas ma xulxin Fre. Ma ninsewx il-massakri li jsehhu... Congo, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast - dawn joqtlu lil xulxin ahseb u ara lilna."
Huwa appuntu ghax gejjin minn fejn gejjin, li persuni dicenti qed jaharbu minn dawn il-pajjizi ifittxu futur ahjar. Jien u inti konna bizzejjed fortunati li gejna f'pajjiz demokratiku u pacifiku u mhux qed immutu bil-guh u l-mard. Il-problemi ta' l-Afrika ghandhom l-istorja taghhom li mhux il-punt li noqghod nidhol fihom.
Bil-kumment tieghek urejt bic-car li r-raguni li inti temmen fil-policy ta' detenzjoni, hija raguni razzista bazwija.
7:19 AM
Issa faqqet gwerra ohra fic-Chad. Iva allura dawn dejjem jiggieldu? Kif mhux kapaci jghixu fil-paci bhalna? Darfur, Congo, Rwanda, Chad, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Nigeria...
Imma verament tippretendu li ngibu l-Afrikani kollha hawn? Ma tifhmux li jekk igibhom hawn, hemm risku li f'erbghin sena il-gwerer se jgibuhom maghhom hawn?
Naqra sens komun...
Malta m'ghandha l-ebda tort f'dan kollu. Ghandek dritt tghinhom jekk trid (aqbad il-flus fil-bank li ghandek u mur ixtrilhom l-ikel - x'qed tistenna?), imma m'ghandekx dritt morali tfotti pajjiz pacifiku ghax inti thossok guilty!
11:27 AM
'Diskussjoni interessanti u pressoche matura'
Yeah, right.. l-iktar din l-ahhar post.
Zlaqt fin-niexef, Cristoforo u waqajt ghas-solitu cucati li xbajt nisma' m'ghand min qed jipprova jimla l-imhuh tan-nies bil-biza ta' invazjoni.
7:57 AM
X m'hemmx matur fl-ahhar post tieghi?
Mela inti ghax ma togbokx il-verita' tghidilha "mhux matura"?
Jekk thossok guilty, mur ghinhom jew paroli biss ghandek? Jiena favur min jghinhom, ghala le, j'Alla tmorru kollha f'pajjizhom u tghallmuhom it-tolleranza bejniethom forsi ma jqattghux izjed lil xulxin!
Biss tfottix lil haddiehor li qed jghix fil-paci prezentament u specjalment tfottix pajjizi li storikament m'ghandu l-ebda tort.
10:45 AM
I haven't read everything but went through it and the arguments brought by Cristoforo are quiet common. I will comment on some of the points raised:
It's easy to say 'i would behave if I were locked in a detention centre'. Yes of course, everybody would say that, from the comfort of their own home, sitting behind a pc screen. The reality however is that being locked up for long periods of times without information about your application, when you have committed no crime is psychologically devestating. A while ago a newspaper carried out an article where an AFM soldier couldn't recognise that the people in 'open centres' where the same ones that he knew at the detention centres! What has changed he asked? They were granted freedom, the voluntary worker answered. So any serious mature individual must analyse the behaviour of people inside the detention centre within that context. Lets imagine a claustrophobic person. You see him in a panic attack in a small room. Does that transpire that he would be acting the same in an open space? NO. Behaviour has to be taken in context. A particular psychological experiment performed in the 60s (forgot the details) confirms this. People act accorindg to the circumstances. Will try and find info about it and post links.
As regards Cristoforo's comment about why they're always fighting. The UN estimated that a country with an abundance of natural resources is three times (i think) as likely to have internal conflict. Now we all know that Africa is a rich continent. When people have nothing, they try to get their hands on what they can, fueling conflict. Add to this the Western's expropriation of resources and you have a volotile cocktail. Also, and this is of major importance, Cristoforo, why do you think that the borders in Africa are straight lines? Who divided them in such manner? You know as well as me that it was a colonial game of monopoly trading. You take Park Lane and give Oxford Street. Draw a straight line and it's yours to rule and exploit. What are the implications and consequences of such an insensitive and arbitrary division? You have borders dividing tribes, that were once a whole community; so that the same tribe now makes part of different countries; countries made up of conflicting tribes. You can imagine the chaos that this causes. So the reasons of conflict are a bit more complex than 'those-are-savages' pseudo arguments.
11:23 AM
So Cristoforo, would it be safe to assume that since you want people to remain in Africa, you would want their resources to remain there too. If that were to be the case, Malta, along with the rest of Europe and the West would be in crises before you can say global economy...
Imbaghad inzomlok post ghal fuq id-dghajsa lejn il-Libja trid?
11:27 AM
Peckletrick,
Good points however you did not address the main point, ie. that Malta never had colonies and thus has no guilt in the drawing of those straight lines.
Remove the african resources if you wish, Malta would still survive. We achieved our wealth by hard work not by exploiting African countries.
11:43 AM
Regarding your point on the open centres, do I have to repeat that we had already a case of an asylum seeker who whilst in an open centre (thus free, not detained!) he attacked a Maltese woman?
Explain to me why that happened despite being free?
11:46 AM
...ghax ghandu il genes bil gilda sewda, allura isir vjolenti...
hekk tridna nghidu?
X'qed tipprova timplika bil-fatt li semmejt? Jekk trid insemmilek attakki li saru fuq nisa minn Maltin stess. Kumbinazzjoni qed naqra lktieb "delitti maltin".
Ma fhimtx ezatt xi trid tghid biha
12:00 PM
"Imma verament tippretendu li ngibu l-Afrikani kollha hawn?"
Kien appuntu dan l-istatement li jien iddeskrivejt bhala immatur, ghax lanqas logikalment ma jaghmel sens.
1. Kieku l-Afrikani kollha jigu hawn, Malta tisfronda.
2. L-Afrikani wahidhom qed jigu, hadd mhu qed jibghat ghalihom.
3. Jien ma nippretendi xejn, nippretendi biss li n-nies ta' pajjizi jitrattaw dil-problema b'mod uman u razzjonali (mhux b'mod panikuz, xenofobiku u li jikser il-human rights)
Jekk tiddeskrivi l-mistoqsija t'hawn fuq bhala wahda matura, allura jfisser li l-livell tal-maturita' fl-ghaqdiet ta' kontra l-immigranti (jew kif tippretendu li huma intom, tal-lemin) hija vera eccellenti, ghax lilek kont inqisek bhala wiehed mill-iktar maturi.
2:09 PM
Excellent explanation on African conflicts, pecklectrick..
It was to this history and conditions that I referred to myself earlier on, when I said that the Western world ruined Africa.
2:11 PM
Fre, jiena naf li hawn Maltin jaghmlu l-istess biss kont qed insegwi l-argument semplici li qed tghid li dawn igibu ruhom vjolenti ghax maghluqin fid-detention centre. Dan li attakka lil din it-tfajla ma kienx f'detention centre? X'raguni geghlitu jattakka t-tfajla?
Kewl Mummy, dak kien argument esagerat biss inthom qatt ma ssemmu xejn fuq x'jigri jekk jigu hafna refugjati hawn Malta.
Btw, tahsbux li mhux nipprezenta argumenti maturi. Gieli rajtu kemm niggieled kontra l-estremisti tal-lemin fuq Vivamalta? Jiena wiehed min dawk li qed nipprova insib il-bilanc bejn l-interess nazzjonali u l-fatt li nipprovaw insibu soluzzjoni umana. Pero' hemm limits u s-salvagwardja tas-socjeta taghna, kif hdimna ghalija ahna hi priorjita'.
Dan bhal meta ghandek pazjent bil-cancer, trid tampunta, haga veru kerha u disumana, imma trid taghmilha biex issalvah.
L-istess ahna bhala socjeta. Ma nistghux infottu pajjiz billi ma niehdux mizuri kontra r-riskji evidenti (li inthom ma tridux tammettu) ta' l-immigrazzjoni illegali fuq:
1) sahha pubblika
2) paci socjali
3) clashes culturali
4) tolleranza
5) sigurta
Inthom li ma ghedtx taraw hu li biex forsi tehilsu 200 persuna mid-detention, qed tpoggi il-bqija f'riskju ta sahha jew socjali jew fisiku.
Forsi ma nafx kif insejtu wkoll li l-low wage earner Malti qed isib ruhu f'kompetizzjoni ma dawn ir-refugjati li jahdmu b'anqas. Allura dan mhux riskju ghal fibra socjali tal-pajjiz?
Jekk dan jispicca bla xoghol, familtu tista' tinfired. Qed tifhmu x'riskji hemm li forsi qed tinjoraw?
Tahseb li hawn xi hadd mil-lemin moderat jiehu pjacir li xi hadd jitpogga go gagga u jbati? Hadd. Inthom tafu li Martin ta' l-ANR anke mar jahdem mal-foqra barra minn Malta? Mhux imbilli tattakkah, bniedem trid tara x'ghamel.
Apparti dan kollu, nerga nirrepeti Malta qatt ma kellha colonji. Se mai, dawn ir-refugjati misshom johduhom l-ex-kolonjalisti.
Isma hawnhekk min jismani anqas jghid li jiena lemin tant kemm qed nipprova nkun centrist! Biss difficli tkun hekk meta min-naha taghhkom tipprezentaw argumenti one-sided li juru l-fundamentalismu taghhom.
Inthom in-Norman Lowells tax-xellug! :D
2:44 PM
Biex naghmilha cara, jien ma tantx jimpurtani mit-teoriji politici, leminin jew xellugin.
Jien just nikkummenta fuq li nara bhala bniedma li nemmen fil-valuri umani ta' rispett, imhabba, tolleranza u responsabbilta'. (U m'inix religjuza lanqas, qabel tibda ggibli l-ezempji mir-religjon)
4:12 PM
Cristoforo, il-punti li semmejt huma punti validi. Il-problema kulhadd jaf li tezisti, u hadd mhu qed jichad li l-fatt li qed jigu iktar immigranti kull sena hija problema li b'xi mod trid tigi ttrattata.
Il-passi li saru dan l-ahhar ma' l-UE kienu passi tajbin, ghax dawn fl-ahhar mill-ahhar, huwa ahjar ghal kulhadd jekk imorru f'pajjizi kbar li ma jhossuhomx daqsna.
Pero ma jistax ikun li inwahhlu fl-immigranti ghax qed jigu hawn.
Dawn m'ghandhom l-ebda tort u huma vittmi ta' dis-sitwazzjoni daqs kemm hu vittma l-poplu Malti. Sakemm ikunu hawn u tinholoq soluzzjoni ghandna l-obbligu li nittrattawhom ta' nies.
Jekk ma tridx tithallat maghhom affarik, avolja li nista' nghidlek hu li inti qed titlef, ghax l-immigranti li naf jien personalment huma persuni ta' l-affari taghhom, ta' rispett enormi, ikkulturati u edukati immens, u ta' kultura affaxinanti u li lili ghallmuni hafna.
4:27 PM
Pecklectrick, that classic experiment from the 60's that you mentioned was Goffman's. Basically they threw a number of university students into a simulated prison, with some acting as guards, the rest being the prisoners. Halfway through, they had to stop the experiment due to the psychological and behavioural problems the participants were manifesting.
4:33 PM
Yes, cheers kewl mummy, didn't have time to look it up!
As to Cristoforo,
I'm surprised that you brought such an argument. I always thought you're made out of better stuff than that. So because an immigrant assaulted a woman whilst in open centre you conclude that it is not detention which turns them violent.
For starters, I never said that detention turns people violent. I said that detention is damaging psychologically, and behaviour within detention should be taken in that particular context.
Secondly, of course a person can act violent once living in an open centre but does that mean that his behaviour is determined by culture/race/freedom?!?!? What about ALL the rest whose behaviour is impeccable? Why choose to use a minority example and use it to generalise on a whole continent? What you have to look at is those immigrants who acted aggressively in detention but act normally outside. Alot of them. But unfortunately you pick a bad apple and condemn all apple trees.
There are violent immigrants, like there are violent bakers. But neither being an immigrant nor a baker makes one inherently violent? It's funny how a black man's attack is the result of culture/race but a white man's attack is his own behaviour.
It's these double standards which make your argument fall flat on its white face...:P
5:32 PM
L-istess ahna bhala socjeta. Ma nistghux infottu pajjiz billi ma niehdux mizuri kontra r-riskji evidenti (li inthom ma tridux tammettu) ta' l-immigrazzjoni illegali fuq:
1) sahha pubblika
2) paci socjali
3) clashes culturali
4) tolleranza
5) sigurta
It's here where your argument becomes dangerous. All those you mentioned are risks which are presented daily by maltese citizens as well. With your logic we should lock them up as well. Let's lock up all AIDS patients because they are a risk etc.
Public Peace? Let's put policmen on every corner! Tolerance? Tell those who burn cars of anybody whose opinions they deem unacceptable.
Inthom li ma ghedtx taraw hu li biex forsi tehilsu 200 persuna mid-detention, qed tpoggi il-bqija f'riskju ta sahha jew socjali jew fisiku.
But once again, Cristoforo, you're being illogical to attribute these risks to immigrants. These risks can come from all quarters, be they tourists, Maltese people, immigrants as everybody else. What do you propose? We close ourselves off in the bastions to avoid risks? The reason why you are attributing these risks to immigrants in detention exclusively, escapes me completely. And that is just prejudice.
Forsi ma nafx kif insejtu wkoll li l-low wage earner Malti qed isib ruhu f'kompetizzjoni ma dawn ir-refugjati li jahdmu b'anqas. Allura dan mhux riskju ghal fibra socjali tal-pajjiz?
Jekk dan jispicca bla xoghol, familtu tista' tinfired. Qed tifhmu x'riskji hemm li forsi qed tinjoraw?
That is stupid. Sorry. But would you use the same argument, if say all women started working for cheaper wages and pushing men out of jobs? Would you say that women ought not to work? Or would you regularise the situation so that people can compete on their abilities rather than cheap wages???
Tahseb li hawn xi hadd mil-lemin moderat jiehu pjacir li xi hadd jitpogga go gagga u jbati? Hadd. Inthom tafu li Martin ta' l-ANR anke mar jahdem mal-foqra barra minn Malta? Mhux imbilli tattakkah, bniedem trid tara x'ghamel.
Does that justify anything? Would I be justified of wanting to imprison you, because of presumed risks I attribute to you, just because I did voluntary work with your cousin???
5:45 PM
I'm surprised that you brought such an argument. I always thought you're made out of better stuff than that. So because an immigrant assaulted a woman whilst in open centre you conclude that it is not detention which turns them violent.
Those who commit atrocities in Africa are free as well. Were the Hutu imprisoned or detained when they decided to massacre the Tutsis? The Sudanese Arab militia are imprisoned or detained because they kill the ethnic africans in Darfur?
You may reply that these things happen everywhere, indeed they do, but look at the rate with which they happen in Africa and compare it with the rest of the world. And don't get the race card in the debate, I never mentioned race any where. Not my intention to do that. Let's keep that out. Let's talk about african culture which seems to be prone to violence and massacres.
It's all about ratios.
It's here where your argument becomes dangerous. All those you mentioned are risks which are presented daily by maltese citizens as well. With your logic we should lock them up as well. Let's lock up all AIDS patients because they are a risk etc.
Public Peace? Let's put policmen on every corner! Tolerance? Tell those who burn cars of anybody whose opinions they deem unacceptable.
What you call dangerous, I call security. Let there be Police everywhere, about what are you afraid if you don't do anything illegal? I wish we were like Singapore! Look at the crime rate there, so low.
Again it's about ratios and probabilities. We have enough trouble makers in Malta, we don't need others. Cultural differences are bound to create friction. What shall we do? For example.. we allow female genital mutilation because it's their culture...? Look at France, at Paris. Look at what immigrants' children did to Paris? Can you honestly tell me you're sure that will not happen in Malta in 30 years time?
Mix cultures at your risk. In reality it's multiculturalism that risks creating racism.
if say all women started working for cheaper wages and pushing men out of jobs? Would you say that women ought not to work?
You cannot compare woman with immigrants. Woman are Maltese too, they worked for this country, they were born here, their parents paid their taxes etc. They have every right to work. Immigrants on the other hand just come in, find fertile ground (ie. an economy we worked so much to make it decent) and enjoy its fruits.
All well if they can enjoy without damaging us but I cannot stand the fact that you are ignoring the problems of the Maltese lower classes.
I am noting you are still mixing me with some kind of Lowellist with references to white face and stuff. Obviously you are not reading what I am posting.
I don't care about white or black or yellow. For me Hitler and Stalin, Mussolini and Lenin were all psychopaths, blemishes in European history. For me white nationalists gave you (the left) enough propoganda material to win the political battle. They are as responsable as you if we lose our country because they played in your hands. They give you political power and influence but I'll fight extremism on both left and right. I will never approve violence against foreigners and never approve this horrific act of terrorism against the JRS. But on the other hand, I am not standing here watching some misguided do-gooders like you ruin our country without trying to stick in your heads these obvious facts.
No are you going to answer my question about Malta and colonization and do I have to assume that you're not humble enough to accept that you lost a point there?
6:53 PM
Those who commit atrocities in Africa are free as well. Were the Hutu imprisoned or detained when they decided to massacre the Tutsis? The Sudanese Arab militia are imprisoned or detained because they kill the ethnic africans in Darfur?
You may reply that these things happen everywhere, indeed they do, but look at the rate with which they happen in Africa and compare it with the rest of the world. And don't get the race card in the debate, I never mentioned race any where. Not my intention to do that. Let's keep that out. Let's talk about african culture which seems to be prone to violence and massacres.
Cristoforo, you're losing track here. Violence occurs everywhere. We can go on about European violence, American violence etc for a decade and we will find countless examples of massacres and mass graves. Violence has to do more with power than culture. Statements like yours (that african culture is prone to violence) are irresponsible. Until you seriously quantify it and prove it in a scientific manner that claim is as valid as my claim that the moon is made out of mozzarella.
What you call dangerous, I call security. Let there be Police everywhere, about what are you afraid if you don't do anything illegal? I wish we were like Singapore! Look at the crime rate there, so low.
I'm not afraid of anything except a police state. We can discuss crime and deterance for ages but saying look at singapore is simplistic as an argument in criminology. And I also think it's besides the point we're discussing, no?
Again it's about ratios and probabilities. We have enough trouble makers in Malta, we don't need others. Cultural differences are bound to create friction. What shall we do? For example.. we allow female genital mutilation because it's their culture...? Look at France, at Paris. Look at what immigrants' children did to Paris? Can you honestly tell me you're sure that will not happen in Malta in 30 years time?
Once again you're doing the mistake, inspired by your prejudice, of equating immigrants with trouble. Once again, you present your opinion as fact without an argument to sustain it. Why is culture difference bound to create friction? When you say that, you're saying that friction is the result of different cultures. People of different cultures living together without friction disprove your assumption. Also, be careful so as not to interpret friction between different cultures as an automatic result of them living together. Will you say that any conflict in Malta (between Maltese people) is the result of monoculturalism?!?!? I don't think you do because you're more wise than that. So what I'm telling you is: apply that wisdom when there are two cultures in the equation. I'm not saying that it cannot happen (cultures clashing); what I'm saying is that it is not an equation (as you think it is) of putting cultures together = automatic conflict. There are many other correlates in the picture which any serious analysis couldn't ignore.
Re, immigrants in Paris. Yes it will happen in Malta too, so long as immigrants remain despised, seen in a negative light and discriminated against. So you see, you and the Right, play a very important part in the aversion of conflict. The more you (in general) talk in the language of 'us' and 'them', the more you judge people on their culture rather than their character, the more you create a fertile ground for division and conflict. Think Malta in the 80s. It was Maltese vs Maltese, but only because differences of political allegiances where emphasized as the most important.
You cannot compare woman with immigrants. Woman are Maltese too, they worked for this country, they were born here, their parents paid their taxes etc. They have every right to work. Immigrants on the other hand just come in, find fertile ground (ie. an economy we worked so much to make it decent) and enjoy its fruits.
The difference Cris, is that you're arbitrarily putting value on nationality, where in my example I put it on gender. Both are wrong in my opinion as people are people, irrespective of culture or gender.
All well if they can enjoy without damaging us but I cannot stand the fact that you are ignoring the problems of the Maltese lower classes.
The difference is Cristoforo, that you see the rights of lower class Maltese and the immigrant 'underclass' as exclusive. I don't. They are both important for me. One does not exclude the others. What I question however is the out of the blue bleeding hearts of the Right for the lower classes. Where was the Right when the boats weren't coming? The lower classes would like to know that.
I am noting you are still mixing me with some kind of Lowellist with references to white face and stuff. Obviously you are not reading what I am posting.
I am not. Because if I were I wouldn't be discussing with you. Cristoforo you've always struck me as a person worthy of the time for discussion which is why I do it. Re the 'white face' comment. It was a joke. Sorry if I offended.
I will never approve violence against foreigners and never approve this horrific act of terrorism against the JRS. But on the other hand, I am not standing here watching some misguided do-gooders like you ruin our country without trying to stick in your heads these obvious facts.
You don't approve, but do you condemn? Where are the condemnations? The solidarity? As for do gooders like me, 'ruining' the country. Well in my opinion, it's do-baders like you (joke) who are ruining it. So basically it's a matter of opinion. What I find different is that the Right seems less committed to the democratic process, and talk of traitors, ruining of countries and national interest (before human rights etc) goes against democracy. The reason I say it is, if the Right arbitrarily thinks that human rights should be suspended in the national interest, what gurantee does anybody have that the human rights of leftists (for example) won't also be suspended in the name of the national interest? Where does one stop? I see that kind of talk (not necessarily from you) as dangerous.
No are you going to answer my question about Malta and colonization and do I have to assume that you're not humble enough to accept that you lost a point there?
I don't think I have to answer that Malta was never a colony. It's obvious enough isn't it? Unlike you, however, I don't think that this fact absolves us of the responsibility of treating people with dignity. It is indeed part of the culture (on paper) of the West. It is part of our culture. It is ironic, that the Right, who claim to defend our culture (as complex a concept as it may be) want to throw away Western thought, that forms part of our political tradition (as a European West) in the name of defending our culture.
11:27 AM
Thanks for your reply. Some points:
1) But not approving them, I meant I condemn them 100%. I did this on various forums, even on Vivamalta where I was attacked for doing so.
2) I think in probabilities. One can debate if this method is good or not but that's how I think. I may sound like generalizing but in real life I try to give everyone a chance. For example, during the ANR protest, a Somali refugee came to me and asked me why were we protesting. He was drunk and it was obvious he had a tough life. I told him Malta is too small for them. I asked him if he works, he answered positively. I told him that I can understand he wants to enjoy the modern and comfy life (and maintain his big family in the meantime) Malta offers but a Maltese worker somewhere else ended up unemployed. All facts. He did not deny it. He just insisted he works hard. I got no doubt he works hard but that does not compensate for the fact that a Maltese worker is not working because a foreigner is working.
You may ask me: So weren't you sorry for him? Yes I was. But I am also sorry that a Maltese worker ended up unemployed. Next time, my father, or yours can end up unemployed. Tipo you would frown on a regulation that forces employers to employ Maltese first at a set wage, and only if they cannot find, employ foreigners. Ux hekk?
3) The moderate right (which I represent) cannot be confused with the extreme counterpart which I am the first to admit the dangers it represents. In reality radical leftists and radical rightists fuel each other. Some hearing NL speaking, will move to the left... someone else hearing you will move to the right. Extremism fuels problems, be it leftist or rightist in nature. So do the right thing and adopt a left-centre approach to the problem ;) (tipo MLP's position seems pretty decent).
12:55 PM
The discussion, in my view is well exhausted so maybe we should end it here. Cheers for your civil discussion.
7:13 AM
Freedom of Information Act papers reveal that DARPA created this android and the project was killed by congress. ``Maybe you know.
xnxx harry potter sex stories
free animal porn stories
adult erotic short stories
xxx tummies stories
adult stories young incest
Freedom of Information Act papers reveal that DARPA created this android and the project was killed by congress. ``Maybe you know.
11:52 AM
Apparently THEY havediscipline. I sit in the car for about 30minutes when I see my wife and her girlfriend come out.
true mom sex stories
hot interracial stories
free sex stories young
femdom sissification stories
bdsm bestiality stories
Apparently THEY havediscipline. I sit in the car for about 30minutes when I see my wife and her girlfriend come out.
11:52 AM
Are you in any kind of trouble. Hands off the keyboard.
free gay porn stories
human animal sex stories
free adult porn stories
true adult sex stories
true stories of beastiality
Are you in any kind of trouble. Hands off the keyboard.
4:49 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home